Why am I not permitted to rate skins that I port?

Published on November 2, 2004 By TN Brat! In WinCustomize Talk

Today I received an email saying

Thank you for your recent upload of your CP38 BeatNik for Beatnik.
Just a heads up.....collaborative efforts preclude you from rating your
partner's works.....it's the equivalent of rating your own, and therefore cheating.
I have removed any that I have noticed to date...and will continue to watch
these submissions.

Truth be told, he is NOT my partner. Though I have made several ports of his skins! I don't make the WindowBlinds, Rainlendars, Sysmetrix....etc. I don't make any of the images he uses....As a matter of fact he make ALL the images I use....I even request specific images when I need them. He sends me .psd files....I don't send him any...so how does this make my PORTS any different from anyone elses' ports?

So, if they are going to remove the ratings to the skins of Pinchecl's that I PORT then they should remove the ratings of the skins other people port....

I made a ports of Obdisian Order and rated it, Marcintesh OS-W, Outlook RB, K-Tek Steel, and several others too....then any ratings I gave them should be removed. Also, I know that some of those authors rated my skins, so you should fix that too. And while you're at it, you should remove any ratings they did on any other ports of their work! Oh, and as long as your so worried about it, also remove the ratings of the person that ported the skin, because I'm sure they rated the original too

First I'm not permitted to upload a Suite file that contained some of Pinchecl's skins in the suite file itself..instead of being linked...ok fine even though I have permission from him to do so, but now I can't rate his work, because he's my partner....Ok...IF he's my partner, then I own half of his work....which I do NOT, and should be permitted to upload the Suite files.....I mean it's at least half mine right?

Does that make me partners with CaveBear too? I've ported Lila, and Dream Rain and am in the process of doing more Dream Rain skins as well as Blue Lagoon??

Please, help me understand this....
And let me make it clear, that I only port Pinchecl's skins....
He really makes ALL the skins himself...
I do other ports while I'm waiting on a new set from him....I don't actually help him make the skins in any way....My contributions to HIS skins...when he's doing a new set is strictly testing and suggesting...I know that plenty of author's have people they always use to test, right?? Well, I can honestly say that until PINCHECL makes the skin and sends it to me to test I have no hand in making them....and several times I have to download the skins from here to get them....

And while I would love to actually have the artistic ability to make images and skins from scratch, I don't....that's why MOST of my skins are PORTS. Pinchecl's included. I have always said that he was the artist....and that I have NOTHING to do with the most important part of making the skins...

Comments (Page 2)

SelfExiled

on Nov 02, 2004

Does this mean that the rating system is now retroactive? So that if anyone ports a skin, or later becomes a partner with someone else that all previous ratings regarding this person and the other will be removed? Will, this be a global rule or just one to use if you don't like one person or the other? If it is global, it has to be fair then, but seems like a whole lot of work. If it is not global, then that is totally unfair, and I just want to say that I love all the admins.

SelfExiled

on Nov 02, 2004

Non Partnership Agreement

The former, known as TN Brat!, and the latter, known as ChasUGC, do not know each other. We met in cyberchat last week but that was in mind only. We do not engage in any profit from this project, and therefore we could care a hill of beans, what anyone thinks about our work. Therefore, all negative comments will be ignored.

We, in non partnership, futhermore, think that it sucks that anyone would remove our little rating just because we liked each others work enough to port it to make it a wee bit more popular. Maybe it is just jealousy from all the money that we aren't making in our non-partnership. So, screw you.

Signed___________
Signed___________
[Message Edited]

TN Brat!

on Nov 02, 2004

Yes, I know Essencay...And it really means a LOT to me!!!!

And Chas....ok now I'm confused...lol But that's an interesting question....considering that the email said that he has removed all thst he's noticed to date....hmmmm so it IS going to be retroactive???

SelfExiled

on Nov 02, 2004

I just updated the agreement, so please re-sign it.

SelfExiled

on Nov 02, 2004

Yep, that means all Skinplant ratings and Pixtudio ratings, from anyone in partnership throughout time must now be removed. It doesn't matter whether you ported any work from the other, but now they are in partnership and all ratings from one or the other, throughout time, must be removed to keep it fair. So if Hippy, ever rated Mikes work, it must be removed for fairness. Wait a minute, does this mean a non-profit partnership or a profit sharing partnership? Maybe its time for another agreement, agree?

[Message Edited]

Essencay

on Nov 02, 2004

ChasUGC....methinks you are taking this thing too far

KarmaGirl

on Nov 02, 2004

There is an ethical reason behind this. If you port a skin, you have a personal interest in the original being popular so that your port will also be popular.

On may occasions, not just with Pinchecl's skins, but today with Niko's newest WB, I rated it high, but it didn't effet the current rating one bit...

It's an average, so your rating might not change the rating.

SelfExiled

on Nov 02, 2004

Or maybe a Non-profit non-partnership vs. Profit sharing Partnership

Wait a minute here. Mormegil works for Stardock, and Wincustomize is affiliated with Stardock. Therefore, the admins can't rate Mormegil, because of bias. Therefore, for fairness, all ratings for Mormegil's work, by admins, should be removed. Come-on this has to be fair, right?

TN Brat!

on Nov 02, 2004

I'm not smart enought o get the quote thing working....or just a little to frustrated to think....but consider it signed....

I've got another problem now....
Earlier, before I got the email, I rated Niko's CyberSkin WB rather high....then I sent over to DA and sent him a note offerint to make the Tabs and Beatnik for this skin, if he waan't going to do them himself....

So, now what? Do I with draw my offer/request for the ports...
Or, do I contact a Mod and ask them to remove my rating....
At least until Nikos says Yes or No about the ports....
Then if it's a no I they can put my rating back and if it's a yes, then I'll have to apologize to Nikos for porting his skin...and droping his rating...

KarmaGirl,
I understand the ethical part, I do. But like you said...
"It's an average, so your rating might not change the rating."
Then where's the harm in rating any skin that I port?

Lila & Blue Lagoon each when they came out...I had no idea then that I was going to port them, so are those ratings going to be removed because I did?

I think it may have a neg effect on porting in general....because in the end, authors won't grant permissions to people with the power to rate, because that'll take away from their ratings...

[Message Edited]

SelfExiled

on Nov 02, 2004

I'm just trying to get everyone to see how silly all this is sounding. It is a silly little rating that means nada in the world scheme. And, it's influence is minimal as KarmaGirl says herself. Can we forget this attempt to minimize artist involvements with each others work and move on?

NightTrainthedark

on Nov 02, 2004

[Message Edited]

TN Brat!

on Nov 02, 2004

ChasUGC you've made your point very well, I think!
Thank you!!!!

Jafo

on Nov 02, 2004

Thanks for the reply and I do think that forwarding this to the admin would be in order, considering that you chose to curse at me. And I was very calm, about this and I do apologise that you have to spend your time responding to emails such as this, don't worry, you won't have to respond to ANY more from me. Didn't mean to infrindge on your time....though as a Mod at this site, I thought it was part of your responsibilities.....

IF Pinchecl and I wanted to create a joint account, we would have done so. As for the error.....it would seem that there are several errors very simular to this.

And I feel more than put out that if you take the time to review the uploads individualy, then perhaps you could at least get it right the first time, but more than anything, perhaps if there was a copyright/distribution issue with the CP Suites....especially considering that there are 2 already available, then perhaps Pinchecl or someone else would have contacted the admin about this....but it would seem than no one but you have a problem with this.

Thanks for you time, don't bother to respond, you have less than nothing I want to hear.

Oh and thanks for being so polite about this, it's a shame that there wasn't a way to work this out.

I did try, but it would seem that you are too busy spending "a damn sight more than 30 minutes responding to issues such as this."

Enjoy...

Paul Martin wrote:

>Arlinda...

>What say you calm down.

>The 'suite' system is intended for an individual skinner to upload his

>OWN skins as a suite.....all the skins are his own and therefore remain

>under his own 'control'. If a skin by someone else is to be 'included'

>then it is supposed to be by being linked-to so it loads with the

>others.....in that case it's a 'theme' file.

>It appears that confusion has reigned over this section...and any

>existing 'suites' that contain actual files that do not belong to the

>person uploading them will be removed.

>If, for example, you wish to be 'partnered' with another skinner to

>create a composite upload then you will have to create a joint account

>name, as is the case with Pixtudio or Skinplant.

>This is a copyright/distribution issue where no-one is appraised of any

>collaboration between owners of an upload.

>There are a dozen or two current uploads that will be addressed and

>removed for this reason.....certainly NOT 'favouritism'....and to

>suggest such is beneath contempt.

>Several incorrectly formulated suites were accepted in error, nothing

>more, nothing less.

>Either you link to existing uploads for ALL works not your own, and

>that includes ALL works by Pinchecl, or both you and he create a joint

>account, both with access to it so that the true skin 'owner' retains

>control over it's/their distribution.

>Neither T-Man, nor I were aware that your huge upload was to contain

>files that were not your own, otherwise the appropriate 'alarm bells'

>would have sounded then, rather than later.

>As for spending 30 minutes typing links etc, spare a thought for the

>site admins who must spend a damn sight more than 30 minutes responding

>to issues such as this.

>There's no need to forward this to other admins, etc, as I am keeping

>them up to speed with all these emails, etc.

>Cheers,

>Paul Martin

>Jafo

>Admin Wincustomize.com

>-Original Message-

>From: TNBrat!

>Sent: Sunday, 10 October 2004 6:12 AM

>To: Jafo

>Subject: Re: WinCustomize: Upload Notification

>Well, this is down right ridiculous! There are currently 2 other Suites

>sitting in my library that don't contain files that are my own property!

>As a matter of fact, I was having such a hard time uploading the CP32

>Suite that I contacted T-Man (Patrick Ford) and he raised the file size

>accepted for Suites for me to be able to submit it! Cliff Pinchetti, AKA

>Pinchecl, and I have been working together on the Suites and he prefers

>that I upload the Suite!

>It would seem that in this case that the "guidelines" wouldn't be a

>factor for us. Have you not seen the work that Pinchecl and I have been

>doing? I have specific reasons for some of the files to be linked and

>some to be included. Why were the other 2 CP Suites accepted? The 32

>Suite is ALL included ...no links at all. The 35 have several files by

>Pinchecl that are included!

>Pinchecl is expecting me to send him the link to these 2 Suites so he

>can update the links for his files...The files contained in 36 & 37,

>that aren't mine, are his, and it's ok with him that I upload the

>Suites...as a matter of fact....when we finished submitting all our

>files for CP32, someone asked, in his comments, for that set to be put

>together as a Suite, Pinchecl contacted me and asked me specifically to

>put the Suite together and upload it.

>Would they be accepted "as is" if he wrote you? Or someone else at

>WinCustomize? Or does he need to write a special permission? I know that

>he's not interested in uploading the Suites, because it took me over a

>month to get the 32 Suite to upload, and since his skins are

>automatically accepted, I asked if he'd like to upload it and he said

>that he preferred me to, but IF T-Man wasn't able to help get my Suite

>to upload he would upload it...but only until they were able to fix what

>ever the problem was....T'Man fixed it and I uploaded it...it was

>accepted....

>I apologize for the start of this email...I was a lot more upset than I

>am by now, but for one thing we have been waiting several days for these

>to be accepted...I spent 30 min or more to type each of the

>descriptions...including ALL the links...I've had 2 other Suites

>accepted that do not fall under your "guidelines"...and there has been

>several other times some of my other skins were accepted....then a

>similar skin was rejected for guideline issues....It would seem that you

>guys aren't always following the same set of guidelines....obviously

>depending on which Mod gets the skin that's the factor on weather or not

>it gets accepted....or maybe it depends on how a particular Mod is

>feeling when he gets the skin....or maybe it's that the Mods sometimes

>pay attention to the skin and sometimes he just lets them go....

>But what ever the case...I feel that it is bad business that sometimes

>the skin is accepted and sometimes it's rejected. This is the specific

>reason I've chosen NOT to subscribe to WinCustomize. Like I've said this

>has been a an ongoing issue for me there...And don't get me started on

>the favoritism there either....but I do know that Pinchecl does

>subscribe and though he hasn't bought Object Desktop, I have....and then

>he and I have both spent the extra money to buy CursorXP Plus and

>ObjectDock Plus...and I also know that he only bought CursorXP Plus to

>be able to make skins to submit to WC and only bought ObjectDock Plus to

>be able to test the Tab Backgrounds I've made to submit....and I bought

>both programs specifically to be able to make skins....I don't even use

>Object Dock, but bought Plus to make skins for submitting to WC...

>For me, if there hadn't been some skins available, I wouldn't have

>bought ObjectDesktop and subquiently the additional programs....I

>realize that WC isn't just a site for people to share skins....someone

>owns it and someone is making money somewhere...or it wouldn't be there,

>so doesn't that make Cliff and I customers?

>I'm not saying that your guidelines are wrong or that we should be

>treated special, because WC has a LOT of customers and I understand that

>you can't please all the people all the time, but what I am saying is

>that perhaps certain skins, in this case the CP Suites, be judged on a

>case by case basis? It's not like I've collected skins from a bunch of

>different authors and uploading it as my own...or uploading is as

>their's but in a Suite...this is a collobrative effort between Pinchecl

>and I. Other Mods don't seem to have an issue with me uploading the CP

>Suites...Obviously because 2 have been accepted and no one has said

>anything about it...

>I look forward to hearing back about this. I'm going to forward this

>also to Pinchecl...is there anyone else I should contact about this?

>Thank you,

>Arlinda

>Jafo wrote:

>>Dear TN Brat!,

>>Thank you for your recent upload of your CP37 Suite for Suites.

>>Unfortunately your upload has not met our guidelines

>><https://www.wincustomize.com/guidelines.asp> and has been rejected.

>>Suites can only include actual files/skins if they are your own

>>property....otherwise they MUST contain links ONLY.

>>However we do look forward to your future submissions.

>>Sincerely,

>>The WinCustomize Staff

Jafo

on Nov 02, 2004

TNBrat! .....you need to decide whether you are in collaboration or not.

If you are in colaboration then the opportunity arises that you can effectively rate your own work which is unfair on those who cannot.

Some people have been known to upload other member's works in the past and wondered subsequently why it was not 'appropriate'....until the rating issue was raised.

In the case you raise here perhaps too much 'connection' has been made through links, etc to Pinchecl's works for anyone to distinguish that you are in fact doing nothing more than 'porting'.

In which case, reference to 'collaboration' may not be appropriate, but 'ported and with permission included from' would be more apt.

Admins/moderators can only react to that which is presented to them.

In this case, IF it is a situation of a straight porting then feel free to rate its origin. If it is NOT a port but is a co-operative venture then refrain.

paxx

on Nov 02, 2004

Exactly, I would urge everybody to refrain from sarcasm as this is not an issue about porting, but an issue about a cooperative work.

TNBrat has - as you can read in the above emails - said that she was working on skins in collaboration with Pinchecl. In this case then it would be like rating your own work, and I think everybody would agree that it's wrong.

So I think it's just a matter of making the issue clear: are TNBrat and Pinchecl a skinning team rating their own skins or not?

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